topic Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card in SIM cards & Porting

Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 08:30:06 GMT

I have an old phone that I use when it's too risky to have my main phone with me.

To do this I have to swap over my sim each time.

Why can't I have a second sim with the same number ?

I only want to have one phone active at any one time so what is the problem with EE offering this service ?

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

wardi — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 10:05:45 GMT

Sorry Alan5353, my understanding is that 2 sims with the same number isn't possible, this seems to apply to all networks. I'm not sure of the technical reasons behind this.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

James_B — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 10:09:23 GMT

Hi @Alan5353,

Welcome to the EE Community. 🙂

@wardi is correct, I'm afraid it isn't possible to have two active SIM cards with the same number.

James

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 10:52:42 GMT

I don't want two cards to be active at the same time. Just one or the other.

It seems that providers can supply phones with two sims, 5G and esims but are unwilling to let customers have an option to use an old mobile when you don't want to risk damaging an £800+ phone.

I'm sure many customers would jump at the chance if this service was offered, even if a small charge was applied although it should be free.

People running, cycling, fishing, sailing, climbing even on a night out would rather pick up an old handset.

Is it in fact, providers just want to sell you another contract ?

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

mikeliuk — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 11:11:06 GMT

Hi @Alan5353 ,

I believe you are proposing that the service provider commits a criminal offence by producing a "duplicate sim card" for you.

It is an offence under https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/section/1 (the device is the SIM).

The proposal is a variant of phone cloning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_cloning

Edit: it is also a typical technique used by fraudsters: https://www.vanguardngr.com/2020/08/sim-card-cloning-fraud-now-in-vogue-bank-customers-warned/

Edit2: it also defeats two-factor authentication, as the assumption that only you have access to your physical device will be broken if you have left a cloned SIM somewhere else.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Chris_B — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 11:12:41 GMT

@Alan5353 The phones that can have 2 sims ( eSim ) are separate numbers from each other and each has their own allowance and tariff and can be on 2 different networks.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

bristolian — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 11:16:25 GMT

It is technically impossible to have 2 SIMs active on the same number.

In years gone by, VF & Orange offered "multi-SIM" facilities where two separate SIMs - each with their own subscription and number - could be linked in order for them to behave as if they were the same number. Both services had limitations (VF's couldn't use data on the multi-SIM, Orange's had some issues with SMS on the additional).

In any case, these services generally worked well, but have been withdrawn since many years and nothing similar is currently available.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 11:36:27 GMT

Thanks for the help.

If that's the case then ill just keep swapping the sim over when required.

Will this cause problems ?

It is a shame that there isn't a solution. Phones carry so much personal data now that it's like taking a laptop with you everywhere you go.

That's not a problem normally but who would take a laptop on stag night ?

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Chris_B — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 11:51:53 GMT

@Alan5353 as long as you’re careful with the Sim card you’ll be okay but Sim cards are not designed to be swapped from device to device on a regular basis so you could end up damaging the Sim card and then you need to request a replacement SIM card.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 12:01:50 GMT

Thanks for the help

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

XRaySpeX — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 12:35:41 GMT

@mikeliuk : No offence is committed when it is the network that supplies its own duplicate "unique device identifier" SIMs to a user:

3. But a person does not commit an offence under this section if—

(a)he is the manufacturer of the device,

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:29:52 GMT

XrayspeX,

So it can be done and is legal ?

A friend of mine had his phone stolen just before the lockdown and had no end of problems. He had banking apps among other sensitive accounts on the device and was really worried afterwards.

This is the main reason (apart from dropping it in a lake) that I prefer to have an old mobile with very limited data on it (a few contacts) on some occasions .

I can forward calls from my main device but I believe that you can't do the opposite so any person I call would need the number in their contacts to know it's me.

Is there anyway around this ?

I really like the convenience of a smartphone but the thought of all that data being lost or stolen isn't funny.

Maybe I should have stuck with my £20 phone with just calls and texts 🙂

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

XRaySpeX — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:39:37 GMT

That's my reading of the legislation but I imagine lawyers can have fun with & make money from it.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:49:16 GMT

Your probably right.

Even if the second sim only allowed you to make calls I'm sure there would still be a big demand for it. I can't be the only person who thinks it would be a good idea.

I'll be going to the first provider that comes up with something.

Oh well 😞

again, thanks for the help

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

XRaySpeX — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 14:55:43 GMT

Thanks! You're welcome 🙂 ! Glad I could be of assistance

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

mikeliuk — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 16:06:28 GMT

I was also thinking what might be the get-out clause but I favoured this one:

(b)he does the act mentioned in subsection (1) with the written consent of the manufacturer of the device.

My thinking is that EE is unlikely to manufacture its own SIMs as it seems like the kind of thing that would be outsourced.

Along my line of thought, we would then just need to know whether EE has factories manufacturing SIMs or whether EE has written permission from the company it has out sourced (if this is the case).

Edit: below are apparently the top SIM manufacturers. Either EE is not a top SIM manufacturer, or it perhaps it does not manufacture any at all, or it out sources some or all of its manufacturing.

https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/sim-cards-manufacturers-and-suppliers/

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

XRaySpeX — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 16:23:59 GMT

Fair comment, @mikeliuk , but what constitutes a manufacturer? Does Apple manufacture iPhones or is it a Chinese factory? In today's modern global economy who knows who makes what?

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

mikeliuk — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 17:43:05 GMT

It does seem that a person who has radio equipment designed and manufactured, and sticks a brand on it is also himself a manufacturer:

“manufacturer” means a person who—
(a)manufactures radio equipment or has radio equipment designed or manufactured; and
(b)markets that radio equipment under that person's name or trade mark;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/1206/regulation/2

Apparently the European Commission has a similar definition. This may be of less direct relevance now but does point to a fairly consistent definition in existence.

'The European Commission defines a manufacturer as “any natural or legal person who manufactures a product or has a product designed or manufactured, and markets the product under its name or trademark.” '

https://certification-experts.com/responsibilities/

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

Alan5353 — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 18:06:02 GMT

I personally think EE could offer some sort of product that would let people have two phones using the same number.

Even if it had limited use like just calls and data.

I just tried swapping my sim into an old iPhone SE which seemed to work fine but now I’ve swapped it back my account is saying I’m still on the SE.

it’s a joke that the so called best provider in the uk can’t do something so simple and useful.

Quite disappointed really.

Re: Why can't I have a duplicate sim card

mikeliuk — Mon, 07 Jun 2021 18:12:18 GMT

A quick mention that about six years ago I had the same concern as the OP that I didn't want to spend GBP 800 on a phone that could be easily dropped and destroyed.

Other people had numerous approaches to this such as buying insurance or a good case.

My solution was to buy a waterproof phone that can be dropped about 1.8 m onto concrete, such as the Cat S61 or Cat S62 Pro. This way, I do not need to swap my SIM between a good phone and a bad phone, and instead I have a good phone for all circumstances. This strategy may not be open to the Apple ecosystem so potentially Apple should introduce a way to enable two phones to share a single number.