topic Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters in Mobile Network discussions

Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Wed, 05 Jul 2023 16:57:12 GMT

In another thread I'm part of a discussion about closure of a local cell resulting in appalling coverage. I've realised I may have my own solution looking at me. wifi calling isn't an option to solve my EE coverage issue because only 1 of the 5 EE / Plusnet phones in the house supports it.

I have a Panorama WMM4G wideband directional on the side of my house, this has line of sight to a mast about 1000m away that has Three on it. I use this connected directly to a 4x4 mimo huawei router and get 100M+ down, with dual-band Carrier Aggregation. not rocket speed but I'm happy with it . Smarty SIM in it because their data's super-cheap. I use this to load-balance / backup my xDSL broadband (I need to be online all the time for work, so internet downtime isn't an option). Three's coverage in my house natively on a phone is rubbish, but with the directional antenna for data, it works. As the same mast that my antenna is pointed at also carries EE - I was thinking about possibly putting an internal amplifier / repeater on the end of one or two of the antenna connections. Happy to lose the CA on the data connection. If I start with a good signal and repeat it internally it might be ok. But I'm aware there are some crappy so-called "boosters" out there.

TLDR: Anyone got any detailed experience with the amplifier/repeater type "so-called boosters", good ones and bad ones?

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

bristolian — Wed, 05 Jul 2023 17:22:22 GMT

No direct experience, but make sure you choose an Ofcom-approved booster to avoid causing further issues.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/advice/using-a-repeater-to-improve-indoor-mobile-phone-signal

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

lalanuggets — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 14:26:19 GMT

Only 2 that are used in the uk in commercial and business mainly. Use of non certified models is illegal in the uk

Nextivity G41-9E

Nextivity Quatra 4000e

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 14:29:05 GMT

yeah those are all expensive commercial grade kit for large buildings. so none of the cheaper stuff thats out there is actually legal?

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

lalanuggets — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 14:21:42 GMT

As I understand it, at current - no.

EE used to supply a 3G signal box that connected into an Ethernet port, and established an encrypted tunnel to EE. This was sunset in 2022 due to the retirement of 3G, with the signal boxes one of the first in the retirement plans.

If your devices don’t support band 20 and n28, I’d be considering a check with ones that do, to see whether the lower frequencies work within the premises.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

lalanuggets — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 14:30:04 GMT

This site maintain ofcom compliance with their stock list. I believe they sell the 2 approved solutions with packages aimed from small office to larger office.

I don’t imagine you will find anything super cheap that’s going to meet the network standard, for public repeating of the signal. Ultimately, anyone could be using it and it’s a reflection of the EE network. It has to be robust and it has to maintain the reliance of the network, which requires sophistication in the way the units work together, and with the macro site

https://signalboosters.co.uk/collections/products

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

EssexBoyEE — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:05:14 GMT

Signal Amplifiers are ok for Calls and Text, kind of, but are pretty much a waste of time if your trying to suck Data through them.

Stick with a 4/5G Router and experiment with Router position and or External Antenna positioning.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:40:01 GMT

calls are exactly the issue I'm trying to solve

I have a directional external antenna , high up on my house, connected to a 4G router. This works perfectly well. I also have xDSL. we don't need a solution for data.

what I don't have, since EE closed the cell 3 weeks ago that it turns out was covering my house for calls, is the ability to make or receive calls in the house over the cellular network. My wife missed a really important personal call today and is really fed up about it. only 1 of the 5 phones in the house is capable of wifi calling, mine, because I spent work money on replacing it last week that I ought to not have had to, because I was constantly missing work calls.

whats even more annoying is that EE refuses to believe there's an issue, they've closed my ticket with "there's no coverage issue in your area". The next nearest cell after the one that was closed has a messed up install - the antennae are literally pointing downwards, but they've ignored my message about it.

I know that with a directional antenna (which is currently pointed at nearest Three mast, which also has EE) I can pull in a strong signal which is very usable for data. I get nothing from that mast for calls at present on the ground floor. But If I can pull that signal from roof level and then repeat it into the house for calls, I'd expect to get something usable. So , I am looking for an economical way to repeat that signal into my house in such a way that we can make and receive calls and texts. That is all.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

lalanuggets — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 16:30:10 GMT

Ok the cell site that was closed, do you know whether it was marked as a temporary site?

How long did the service work - was it years? Certainly there’s not a part of network rationalisation that’s supposed to disconnect users from the service in theory.

Does the coverage checker show indoor coverage?

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

bristolian — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 20:21:19 GMT

Given the mention of the coverage loss on this forum, it's likely this site decom has come about as part of a legal or acquisition issue rather than an optimisation-driven activity. Such scenarios do happen from time-to-time but it's always the preferred solution to have replacement sites live before switch-off - it's just not always possible.

Without knowing the specifics of this location, antennas that are mounted at 45degrees to the vertical would have a site-specific reason for it!

EE's preferred solution for indoor coverage issues has been WiFi-calling for many years now, I can't remember when the last non-VoWiFi-compatible device was launched but any response from operators directly, is very likely to be along these lines.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 20:55:59 GMT

service worked for years. I have no idea how things are marked as temporary site or not. the site which we think closed 3 weeks ago is 32448 which according to cellmapper was first seen 2016.

coverage checkers shows good indoor 4G for the whole area.

cell 32142 in the village centre is at a crazy angle and only gives coverage for 100 yards. superb , but only if your actually in the pub.😩

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 21:05:46 GMT

you may be right about the closure of the cell in question being a legal thing thats what I heard too. my point is that there is another site in the centre of the village , that is still live, but that provides little or no coverage. I've posted a photo of it in the previous post. I am not a cellular network designer but I do have a physics and information engineering degree and 30 years working in data networks, including with wifi and directional client-side cellular antennae. I cannot understand why the antenna would legitimately be sited as per the photo. To me it looks like someone's moved them or bodged it. If the coverage emanating from site 32142 could be made better, that might well alleviate the issues we're all seeing.

as for wifi calling, my family all have 4 year old moto g6's which still work just fine. but don't do wifi calling. there are plenty of other phones out there that don't do wifi calling. I was forced to buy a new phone last week (to get wifi calling) as I was literally unable to make/take work calls due to this coverage issue, but I can't do that for the entire family.

all I am asking is that EE actually checks the coverage in my area with actual local measurement rather than using the computer predictions. And checks out cell 32142 on top of The Swan.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 21:19:37 GMT

I've posted a picture of the site (32142, on the chimney of The Swan pub). Is that genuinely how its supposed to be? looks like its been bodged or moved to me. I'm asking for EE, rather than trusting the "computer says yes" coverage date, to actually check and measure it. And whilst doing so, check the install on site 32142. If that site could be made to give coverage of more than 100 yards as it does now, then the coverage issues that the village is currently experiencing due to the loss of 32448, might be able to be mitigated to some degree.

regarding wifi calling, we have 4 moto g6's , 4 years old, they do not do wifi calling. In any case, the signal is still awful outside of wifi range of the house.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

EssexBoyEE — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 22:44:06 GMT

I can see a pic of the Swan Pub but can't see any Antennas, what are we looking for and what do you mean by a crazy angle.?

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 08:15:28 GMT

on the chimney . cropped pic above. two antennas within few cm of each other at 45 to vertical. there are no other antennas.

Also - the contrast makes it a bit difficult to see - but there's many metres of randomly tangled cable on the roof, suggesting to me it was originally or intended to be stretched further. it doesn't look like how I'd expect a professional to leave it.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

EssexBoyEE — Sun, 09 Jul 2023 13:28:15 GMT

@iancalderbank wrote - on the chimney . cropped pic above. two antennas within few cm of each other at 45 to vertical. there are no other antennas. Also - the contrast makes it a bit difficult to see - but there's many metres of randomly tangled cable on the roof, suggesting to me it was originally or intended to be stretched further. it doesn't look like how I'd expect a professional to leave it.

2G and early 3G Site Antennas where Vertically Polarised, some later 3G and now pretty much all 4G Site Antennas are all Cross Polarised at +-45 Degrees, your mentioning of the 45 to vertical I believe is just coincidental of them being left there.

You mention the Swan Pub as eNBID 32142 on CellMapper, but if you check its not a Confirmed Site (its in Red, rather than Green), meaning its not been survey enough within a 360 Degree, or it could just be a Phantom Site, they do pop up on Cell Mapper now and then or are left overs from incomplete Surveys.

I checked another Data Base and it looks like there is, or was an EE Site presence at that location (see the Screenshot below) but my belief is that this Site is not current with EE's 4G Network, although I could be wrong.

Another quick search reviles the Pubs Roof has had some work going on around the Chimney Area (see Pic blow) and another (Pic below) where the Antennas are actually mounted, I would guess the second Antenna is out of view on the reverse side of the Chimney.

It could be that these Antennas are redundant and may well be leftovers from a Local Fill In Site from the Orange / TM era, again playing the guessing game looks to me like some works was required that involved Scaffolding and the Antennas were removed and have just been left there on the Works completion.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 08:29:45 GMT

interesting that you found pictures of the work and how they were originally mounted before the work, that confirms my suspicions that they've simply not put them back properly after the building work.

the site is live. If I stand next to the pub, I get very strong signal from 32142 with cellmapper. Cellmapper shows last mapped thursday 6/7/23 - by me. I don't know why its red, my understanding is that means it has not had its location confirmed, well I could confirm it, but it won't let me. my suspicion is therefore that the EE network coverage system thinks the antennas for 32142 are in the right place and giving good coverage. But they aren't.

how do we get a message to an appropriate person at EE that

coverage in this village is NOT as good as the predictors say it is,
the recently closed site has made things considerably worse
there's a live site that could do a lot towards addressing those issues, if it was properly installed.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

EssexBoyEE — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:37:04 GMT

@iancalderbank - the site is live. If I stand next to the pub, I get very strong signal from 32142 with cellmapper. Cellmapper shows last mapped thursday 6/7/23 - by me. I don't know why its red, my understanding is that means it has not had its location confirmed, well I could confirm it, but it won't let me.

I've temporarily confirmed the Site Location for 32142 on Cellmapper for the time being, when you get a chance could you share with a screenshot with me from Cellmpaper main Cell page when your next to the Site again and are registered to Site 32142 in order to support the Location Confirmation, would also be good if you could do at the same time a screenshot form the Main Page from the Netmonster App (Android).

The Confirmed Site should now show the correct Address for its location on CellMapper, if you input that Post Code to EE Coverage Checker and Check Status, it shows an Known Issue and also has a Link to another Thread on the Community -

Woburn Sands Signal Problems We're aware of signal problems that are affecting some of our customers in Woburn Sands. Here is a link to the community page where you will find the latest information - Find out more

As you have already participated in that Thread, it make sense to continue with the Coverage in Woburn Sands Tread and leave this Thread as and for the Signal Amplifiers and Repeaters.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

iancalderbank — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 14:12:06 GMT

previously the status checker hasn't shown an issue, its good that its now doing so. however when I raised a trouble ticket, the response was "no issues in your area, have you tried switching off an on again" (I kid you not) . So obviously not all joined up. I'll capture the data you asked for and pm those. happy to keep this thread to what I originally asked which was:

- is there an economical signal amplifier (fed by a directional antenna with a good signal - which I know I can do ) that will give me viable calls inside the house? If the network's timeframe to fix is in the order of months, this may be my only option. vs buy 4 new phones and move those who're still on plusnet to ee.

Re: Signal amplifiers / repeaters

bristolian — Mon, 10 Jul 2023 16:30:29 GMT

@iancalderbank wrote:

how do we get a message to an appropriate person at EE that

coverage in this village is NOT as good as the predictors say it is,

the recently closed site has made things considerably worse

there's a live site that could do a lot towards addressing those issues, if it was properly installed.

I concur with EssexBoy's suggestion to keep discussion of Woburn Sands coverage issues to that thread - starting additional threads for the same issue is not going to get any different answers.

As a general point to the questions above, these are all considerations that EE planning & deployment are responsible for, they are not customer-facing. The customer contact remains the same for all network issues - the coverage checker in first instance, then CS.