topic Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question? in Archived Posts

4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Sfarrer — Sun, 24 Oct 2021 20:34:14 GMT

Hi all, I currently have a 4g Huawei Mate 20 pro. I am on a 5g sim only plan but still with a 4g sim. What is the network max I could get over 4g? If I put I 5g sim in my 4g phone, would I get higher speeds?

I have been unhelpfully informed by EE Twitter that 4g highest downlink speed is 30mbps, yet I have been recieving 75mbps for years. So thought I would ask here as whoever runs to social media channels has no idea.

Thanks in advance.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Chris_B — Sun, 24 Oct 2021 20:43:22 GMT

@Sfarrer You’ll not get faster speeds because of a change of SIM card. A 4G sim will support 5G because it’s an account change that allows you to get 5G. you have this already if you are on a 5G contract. It’s your device that’s stopping you from having 5G as it’s only a 4G device, put your sim in a 5G device and you’ll get 5G.

As you’re using a 5G tariff you are getting the fastest speed possible for your area. It’s an unlimited speed because your on a 5G tariff even though you are only using 4G .

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

bristolian — Sun, 24 Oct 2021 20:53:39 GMT

Just to add, there's no such thing as a 4G SIM or a 5G SIM - all EE SIMs support all radio technologies from 2G > 5G.

What matters is the plan that is active on the mobile number in question, and whether that enables access to 5G services.

If you have a 5G-plan and a 5G-device, then you should have access to 5G service in areas where it's available.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Northerner — Sun, 24 Oct 2021 21:34:27 GMT

Hi @Sfarrer

EE don't advertise their speeds anymore because of the number of different variables which will impact speed in any one area.

If you don't have a 5G phone then unless you don't mind paying more for a service you cannot receive then upgrading to 5G is pointless and won't benefit you.

Thanks

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Sfarrer — Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:18:59 GMT

Thanks @Northerner I get that there are variables which determine actually speeds achieved, but surely there is an actual maximum speed on 4g provided by the network

To not provide that info is like a car manufacturer not listing a cars top speed just because the road you're driving on has its own limit.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

James_B — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 07:37:20 GMT

Hi @Sfarrer,

Welcome to the EE Community. 🙂

The theoretical max speeds available on 4G will vary from area to area, depending on the types of network technology deployed and the device you are using.

James

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Chris_B — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:45:16 GMT

@Sfarrer You’ll be very lucky to get over 100Mbits on 4G.
I would say the average is around 60mbits. There are many factors to the speeds you can receive this will be from the device you are using the location that you are at. The weather conditions at that time. What frequency you are connected too. How far from the mast, how many users are connected to that mast, what are these users doing at that time. It’s not a simple answer as you can see but more of a rough guide on what you might get at any one location.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:46:24 GMT

Hi @Sfarrer ,

If you are interested in theoretical speeds, you may find the below link useful.

As an example, my Netgear MR1100 now predominantly connects via B1 after a recent update so can theoretically achieve 150 Mbps down and I've seen 130 Mbps down at 0400 before (carrier aggregation may be relevant depending on device).

Networks are limited by whatever is the bottleneck so home networks can achieve ~950 Mbps (gigabit Ethernet) but might be limited by the service provider as to what is measured by fast.com

https://www.cellmapper.net/4G-speed

For actual bandwidth estimates for a particular area I would recommend the OpenSignal app to see what people actually achieve, and if your measurement is a lot lower, it might be possible to improve it.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Chris_B — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 12:50:27 GMT

@mikeliuk Are you going to tell @Sfarrer what options need to be selected if they use your link ? Obviously not everyone knows what they should choose and what bandwidths EE uses.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

bristolian — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:48:37 GMT

Hi @Sfarrer

By means of some additional background, EE operate 4G service across 4 different "bands" or areas of radio spectrum.

All have different qualities in terms of radio coverage & capacity, but which 4G bands are available on your serving site is a major factor in the theoretical speeds available.

Real world speeds then depend on many of the factors already mentioned.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

EssexBoyEE — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:21:15 GMT

Hi @Sfarrer as others have mentioned there are just too many variables in 4G technology to be definitive on any LTE Network speeds.

What I can add is your phone the Mate 20 Pro series is a very capable as it's a CAT21 Spec, 1.4Gbs DL / 200Mbs UL.

EEs Network can support in certain Prime Mast locations, up to 750 to 850mbs on 4G+ (LTE A, with Multi CA and 4x4 MiMo) but your never really going to see anything close to these speeds in real terms.

From my experience, best I've seen on EE 4G+ is around 430mbs DL and 150mbs UP, and that was sitting in Pub in Chingford a few Years back using a SonyXZ Premium (CAT16) but again these speeds are well above the average overall.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:49:17 GMT

Hi @Chris_B ,

No. 😀

I think the theoretical for the MR1100 might actually be much higher and will need to double check the specs. The headline number is easy to find but filling the other drop-downs will be a pain.

I can attempt a worked example in case it helps. I've got this device:

https://store.netgear.co.uk/product/mr1100-100eus

Apparently it's a Cat 16, 4x4 MIMO.

256QAM down/64QAM up https://community.netgear.com/t5/Mobile-Routers-Hotspots-Modems/difference-in-Nighthawk-M2-MR2100-amp-M1-MR1100/m-p/1751685/highlight/true

LTE-A theoretical notes: https://www.4g-lte.net/lte/lte-lte-lte-advanced/

Anyone know where I can discover the channel width/bandwidth in use as I don't seem to see this in the MR1100 management pages? https://www.4g-lte.net/about/lte-frequency-bands/

Let's assume 20 MHz for the moment, and then I see 391.6Mbps ↓ & 75Mbps ↑

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

EssexBoyEE — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:27:25 GMT

I'm afraid the the Speed Calculator that @mikeliuk has posted up will offer limited or no benefit the OP.

The Calculator requires extra information, for LTE Advance inputs, like additional number of Carrier Aggregation Frequencies, available or given Bandwidts from the Masts,, QAM and MiMo type.

You would need to be in position to have access to some good Diagnosis Tools at your disposal and an informed understanding of LTE Networks.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

Chris_B — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:16:27 GMT

@EssexBoyEE I think it’s of the no benefit at all side. 😆 And there’s proof on the last comment back to me of “let’s assume”

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 20:48:42 GMT

The band doesn't really impact the output of the calculator (keeping all else constant). The rest is looking up a data sheet.

Previously the MR1100 preferred B3 and B7 but now almost always goes for B1 post-update.

Mobile phones are much better with apps to extract more information (e.g. CA) than stock router firmware. As mentioned, the OpenSignal app is going to be better for real world empirical data. 🤓

Here's a table of channel bandwidths in case anyone is not being flippant: https://halberdbastion.com/intelligence/mobile-networks/ee-uk

Below are absolute best cases for upper bounds. Some combinations may be invalid. A first approximation to CA would be to assume 100% efficiency.

LTE Band	Channel bandwidth	Downlink	Uplink	MIMO	Estimate
B1 (2100 MHz)	15 MHz	256QAM	64QAM	4x4	293.7Mbps ↓ & 56.25Mbps ↑
B3 (1800 MHz)	20 MHz	256QAM	64QAM	4x4	391.6Mbps ↓ & 75Mbps ↑
B3 (1800 MHz)	10 MHz	256QAM	64QAM	4x4	195.8Mbps ↓ & 37.5Mbps ↑
B7 (2600 MHz)	20 MHz	256QAM	64QAM	4x4	391.6Mbps ↓ & 75Mbps ↑
B7 (2600 MHz)	15 MHz	256QAM	64QAM	4x4	293.7Mbps ↓ & 56.25Mbps ↑

Errors and omissions excepted.

Thought I would look up the Huawei Mate 20 Pro and this took a bit of finding: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13503/the-mate-20-mate-20-pro-review

Cellular

Kirin 980 Integrated LTE
(Category 21/18)

DL = 1400 Mbps
4x4 MIMO
3x20MHz CA, 256-QAM
(5CA no MIMO)

UL = 200 Mbps
2x2 MIMO
1x20MHz CA, 256-QAM

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

bristolian — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 21:19:12 GMT

In an effort to keep to a more straightforward answer than the previous poster prefers, the frequency bands in use do dictate the amounts of radio spectrum in use.

And that affects the speeds attainable, along with a multitude of other factors.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 21:45:10 GMT

Hi @bristolian ,

Feel free to submit a bug report.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 10:20:46 GMT

For people hitting this ticket in a search with a serious interest in the topic, I thought I would leave a reference to explain why the carrier band doesn't entering into the calculation.

https://www.techplayon.com/lte-fdd-system-capacity-and-throughput-calculation/

There's also the white paper "Throughput Calculation for LTE TDD and FDD System".

Obviously carrier frequency does impact transmission which might come into play for second order approximations.

A layman's explanation I thought of was that the carrier is only indirectly related to signalling. Assume you want to use Morse code for signalling and use both a high-frequency UV light and a low frequency infra-red light. The UV and IR carrier frequencies are incidental to the Morse code signalling. Yes, UV signalling into the atmosphere might be attenuated, and IR might be reflected signalling out of our atmosphere, but it's the frequency of the Morse code signalling that impacts throughput and not the frequency of the carrier when conditions are ideal for both carriers.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

EssexBoyEE — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 12:54:21 GMT

@mikeliuk UV Light, IR Light transmitting Morse Code in and out of the Atomoshere?, I dont understand how that can be related or a comparison to LTE Carrier Aggregation.

Re: 4g and 5g downlink speeds question?

mikeliuk — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 13:31:09 GMT

Many EM frequencies are suitable as a carrier. The signal is encoded with some modulation.

No claim was made about a relation to carrier aggregation, but as you've pointed it out, both UV and IR signals can be superimposed to demonstrate carrier aggregation where the two carriers are UV and IR. The data rate is doubled in the ideal case: two streams of Morse code.

Morse code was only mentioned as an easy to understand encoding. 3GPP standards can be taken instead, if you want.