topic Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill in Archived Posts

SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

madi86 — Tue, 22 May 2018 23:15:23 GMT

Recently, I have discovered I have been charged since last year by BounceGame and TheAppFone service provider on me and my wife account. I contacted EE to get a help on this and found a standard reply "Contact third party" that i have seen on this forum which was not helpful at all by such a reputable company even after escalating the issue. In the end they offer my wife £25 refund which she refused to accept it.

Then i contacted the third party after not getting any help from EE and they explained me their browser pop up story and blame me that i have subscibed to it. In the end after all this rant they offered my a GOODWILL refund of £20. They took 100's of pound from me and my wife account without our consent and EE helped them to do this. I refused to take that amount becasue they mugged me in the brought daylight and in return they are saying goodwill refund! SERIOUSLY?

By looking at posts on this and other forums I am so shocked how may people up till now has been scammed by this company and EE hasn't take any measures to close this loop hole. I can't even imagine how these companies are still operating in UK.

Definately after going through this forum and very much convined EE doesn't care about its customers. May be they are getting some percentage on every charge applied from third party.

Shame on EE allowing your customers to be scammed by these scammers.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

XRaySpeX — Tue, 22 May 2018 23:28:13 GMT

You helped too by not checking your bills & bank a/c's for months on end.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

madi86 — Wed, 23 May 2018 00:18:30 GMT

Look like you're a full star contributor on this forum but its difficuilt for me to digest you're suggesting someone to check the monthly statement end of every month and its customer fault when they are not spoting erroneous charges on their account.

May be its a norm for EE customers here to keep an eye on their bills.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

XRaySpeX — Wed, 23 May 2018 01:21:07 GMT

I am!

Maybe it's should be the sensible norm for the general population to keep an eye on their bills & bank a/c's, esp. in these days of scams & identity thefts.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

csuwi1 — Wed, 23 May 2018 07:18:23 GMT

It's depressing to hear yet another case of this, but don't give up.

My understanding (and I am not a lawyer, just a consumer who has spent a lot of time fighting this) is that the law is on your side here. Whatever EE tell you, they took the money from your account and they are at very least jointly liable for that. Every line of policy, procedure or regulation that they quote is trumped by by the law of the land and they will try to convince you otherwise (indeed, many of their call staff may not realise that), but don't be put off. EE are taking money from you, on behalf of a third party who do not have your permission, and that is theft and fraud, plain and simple.

If you are paying by direct debit and EE refuse to budge, contact your bank and ask them to step in under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee. If you are paying by credit card there are similar provisions under the Consumer Credit Act.

Sadly, EE are well aware that fighting for refunds is a difficult and frustrating process, that the regulation is woeful and that most people give up. People who persist do tend to get somewhere eventually, but be stubborn and be noisy. Best of luck.

@XRaySpeX: whether or not it's sensible to check your statements thoroughly each month -- which I won't argue with -- it's unhelpful distraction from the point, which is that a crime has been committed. Forgetting to lock your car door, for example, is unwise but it is not carte blanche for someone to steal it.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

Christopher_G — Wed, 23 May 2018 08:10:44 GMT

Hi @madi86

Welcome to the community.

I'm sorry you feel that you could not find an acceptable resolution with the company who charged you for their service.

I recommend getting in contact with the Phone-paid Services Authority (PSA) who regulate these services.

They will be able to advise you on how to proceed further.

Please let us know how you get on.

Chris

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

muggles708 — Wed, 23 May 2018 08:33:48 GMT

@madi86 wrote:
Recently, I have discovered I have been charged since last year by BounceGame and TheAppFone service provider on me and my wife account. I contacted EE to get a help on this and found a standard reply "Contact third party" that i have seen on this forum which was not helpful at all by such a reputable company even after escalating the issue. In the end they offer my wife £25 refund which she refused to accept it.

Then i contacted the third party after not getting any help from EE and they explained me their browser pop up story and blame me that i have subscibed to it. In the end after all this rant they offered my a GOODWILL refund of £20. They took 100's of pound from me and my wife account without our consent and EE helped them to do this. I refused to take that amount becasue they mugged me in the brought daylight and in return they are saying goodwill refund! SERIOUSLY?

Unfortunately this is the way that this ridiculous system works. As @csuwi1 points out, there are laws which are supposed to protect you in these circumstances, but they are ineffective because the companies all deny responsibility and hide behing each other.

EE claim to be only a payment processor, but in reality they will threaten you with a debt collector if you refuse to pay these third parties.

You have done all the right things thus far, and are right to have refused 'goodwill' gestures, as accepting these can weaken your legal position.

My advice would be to take legal action in the small claims court against the company. It is not a daunting process, but you do need follow the process correctly. In every case I am aware of the company has backed down and paid up when they received the letter before action. Full details of actions you can take are here: http://payforitsucks.co.uk/im-not-getting-anywhere-with-my-case/

@madi86 wrote:

By looking at posts on this and other forums I am so shocked how may people up till now has been scammed by this company and EE hasn't take any measures to close this loop hole. I can't even imagine how these companies are still operating in UK.

There are currently a large number of consumers complaining that they were subscribed to one of these 'services' without consent. One way that this can happen is through Andoid malware, which is capable of silently signng consumers up to these services. The PSA (and consequently the networks and service operators) are well aware of this, but have sought to play down the effect of these scams. https://psauthority.org.uk/for-business/android-malware

To be fair to EE they have brought in new rules which should defeat the scammers, at least on this network.

https://clients.txtnation.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000656991-UK-Changes-to-PFI-payment-flow-on-EE

https://blog.impulsepay.com/post/170580247572/ee-flow-changes-15th-february-2018

These changes came into effect in February, and have the effect of requiring a double opt-in for all subscriptions and not just those at over £4.50 per week.

The supposed subscription in this case pre-dates the application of these rules.

@madi86 wrote:
Definately after going through this forum and very much convined EE doesn't care about its customers. May be they are getting some percentage on every charge applied from third party.

Shame on EE allowing your customers to be scammed by these scammers.

Like all of the networks, EE make money from these third party charges. They won't say how much, but when these systems have finally been exposed in other countries it has been 15%-20%.

I'd like to be able to help you further with this, and in particular I'd like to see a case taken to court, as I believe that could help stop these scams for once and for all.

Please take a look at the resources on http://payforitsucks.co.uk.

It's not clear whether these charges have been made through 'Payforit' or through EE's 'own portal', but the advice on that site applies to both anyway.

Don't forget also to complain to the Phone-paid Services Authority about these unauthorised charges.

Let me know if I can help you further, either by through the payforitsucks website or by PM here.

Paul

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Wed, 23 May 2018 08:31:58 GMT

EE reps, You are still fobbing people off to the toothless PSA despite the fact that bounce games are in partnership with EE via an own portal service and are getting a lot of commission from this. This has been going on for years now. Shame on EE!

Customers: If you need proof then try to acces the following url on a mobile device any network other than EE... it won't work .. only works on EE as they are in an exclusive partmentship using an EE payment portal.

http://games.bounce.mob

XRaySpecs.. I see you are still patronising customers... how very noble of you. I have reported you and hopefully you will not receive your incentives this month.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Wed, 23 May 2018 09:13:17 GMT

After Friday 25 May I suggest that everyone report EE, Bounce.games aka PConnect Ltd for non compliance of GDPR regs as they are storing your personel data (phone number and EE account details) and subscribing you to a service without your explicit positive consent. The process is also initiated by sending your mobiler number in an open http url... also a breach as you not allowed to send PII data unencrypted.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Wed, 23 May 2018 09:39:53 GMT

I also believe that all the networks should not be able to offer third party service access to your account without your concent explicit under GDPR. Currently they are doing so without knowledge of existance or consent from customer. GDPR regulation has been designed to stop this kind of practice and the penalites to companies can be severe.

So please complain.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

muggles708 — Wed, 23 May 2018 10:04:06 GMT

@moog

Some suggestion that BBC Watchdog may be taking a look at 'mystery phone charges' tonight. It really is time to recognise that this system of passing consumers' phone numbers to a third party when they 'click a link' is ridiculously insecure and open to abuse.

The networks, the service providers and the regulator are all well aware of these weaknesses and could easily act to stop these scams but don't do so.

There are many people in @madi86 s position, but many haven't discovered it yet. Even though EE have acted to provide extra security, and provide a 'charge to bill' opt-out, these cases will continue to appear. In the States they call it 'cramming'.

It is not unusual for contract customers to go for a year or more without checking their bill. I know that's wrong, and I wouldn't do it myself, but they make the mistake of trusting their mobile phone company. Misplaced trust if you ask me!

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Wed, 23 May 2018 10:43:16 GMT

Thanks Muggles, the cramming wikki page has made my day. I'll post it again and encourage everyone to read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramming_(fraud)

I love the line about AT & T being fined $150 million:

" AT&T was accused of keeping at least 35% of the fees, as well as obscuring the charges on bills and preventing customers from securing full refunds."

Does this ring any bells EE..

The article will soon be incorrect though... as from Friday 25/05 cramming will no longer be legal in the UK. Big fines coming the networks way.

....and to all the EE reps on this forum to failed to help their customers who have been victims of this .. or worse blamed them.. shame on you!

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Wed, 23 May 2018 11:20:03 GMT

Have you had a mystery charge on your bill from @threeUK @EE @O2 @VodafoneUK, or other provider? We’re taking a look this evening, 8pm, @bbcone.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

XRaySpeX — Wed, 23 May 2018 13:25:55 GMT

@csuwi1 wrote:

Forgetting to lock your car door, for example, is unwise but it is not carte blanche for someone to steal it.

No, but don't expect your insurance co. to pay out on it.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

madi86 — Wed, 23 May 2018 12:31:23 GMT

@moog @muggles708 @csuwi1 Thanks so much guys for your support and advice.

@Christopher_G May i suggest you alter your standard comment as you're not adding any value to this post. If we all had the same view as you, powerful companies with huge budgets will continue to side step consumer laws their to protect consumers. Take your head out of the sand, I would like hear your sincere views on this bigger issue.

@moog Huge thanks for sending me the BBC watchdog tweet. I'm sending my case including evidence to watchdog as this issue is being cover tonight.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

csuwi1 — Thu, 24 May 2018 08:17:51 GMT

@XRaySpeX wrote:

@csuwi1 wrote:

Forgetting to lock your car door, for example, is unwise but it is not carte blanche for someone to steal it.

No, but don't expect your insurance co. to pay out on it.

But you're missing the point: EE are not simply the equivalent of the insurance company.

An insurance company has absolutely no part in the theft of your car. Your contract with them is the whole story and if it says they will not pay out if you left your car unlocked, then that's too bad. The police, of course, will still consider it a crime and investigate it.

With premium rate phone scams, the operator are involved. They are the people who actually take the money form your account at the request of the scammer. They facilitate the theft and that makes them legally liable for their actions. That is the legal bottom line in all of this: they take the money from your account, and they are liable for that action.

The rest just makes it worse: they do so on the basis of a process which is demonstrably not secure: they require little more proof than the say-so of a third party that you gave them permission. That makes them negligent too.

Finally, they profit from the theft, and when the crime is reported, they attempt to retain their ill-gotten gains. That makes them accomplices.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

Stav — Wed, 23 May 2018 16:50:00 GMT

I've JUST been scammed too! After finishing a chat with an agent on the EE website a few minutes ago, I am delighted to see that I am not the only victim - I felt completly isolated being told that I will not get my money back. EE will not refund me my money that has been debited from my bank account over the last 12 months. Also, the third parties are not accepting responsibility either and ere also refusing to refund my money.

Guys, PLEASE HELP, what can I do?

I will raise a complaint with PSA but after reading this forum, I have a feeling that this will also be a 'lost cause'. 😞

@moog Thanks for the Watchdog retweet - What a coincidence. I will be reporting my case also @madi86

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

muggles708 — Wed, 23 May 2018 17:33:45 GMT

@Stav

Sorry you've been caught up in one of these scams.

There is advice on how to pursue your case on the website at http://payforitsucks.co.uk.

It would appear that your scam is an 'EE own portal scam', but the advice is the same as they now fall under the juristiction of the PSA.

Unfortunately EE will ask you to try to recoup your losses from the company that they say took it. So you need to negotiate with them first.

If these negotiations do not produce a satisfactory result, you can then revert to EE and ask them to abide by the Mobile Operators Code of Practice for the Management and Operation of PFI, or even to follow their own procedure for 'Payforit' disputes.

A failure to follow these procedures could be referred to the communications ombudsman.

It sounds as though a significant amount of money may be involved here. If that is the case I would recommend considering legal action in the small claims court. Information on the first steps is here: http://payforitsucks.co.uk/im-not-getting-anywhere-with-my-case/

I hope you manage to get a satisfactory resolution of your case. Please contact me again, by PM here or through the payforitsucks.co.uk website if you need further assistance.

These scams are a disgrace to the mobile communications industry.

Paul

payforitsucks.co.uk

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

moog — Thu, 24 May 2018 09:43:16 GMT

Enjoyed watchdog last night (Series 39: episode 6). Expensive night for the networks and helped expose this issue for what it is... and it's not customer accidentally clicking things.

One thing struck me though... in all the examples on the show mirrored what is being said in forums accross the networks.... the unwantd charges are almost always for one of the following servie types:

Games
Fitness
Recipes
Wrestling

This seems to mirror the four offerings from PMConnect Ltd that are the 3rd party that do the own portal arragment with networks instead of the Industry standard PayForIt mechansim that most 3rd parties use that ha the double opt in etc.

Here is the list of the PMConnect offerings;

Bounce Games - http://games.bounce.mobi

iFitness - http://fitness.bounce.mobi

LV Food - http://food.mpay.uk

WWE - http://wwe.mpay.uk

Check the forums and these services come up again and again.. ~given the sheer number of services out there.. this alone must ring alarm bells.

I'm convinced that the payment mechanisnm that this PMConnect uses has been compromised. They all so use affiliates heavily so there is an incentive for click fraud. EE should e investigating this.

Re: SCAMMED: Third party charges on my bill

muggles708 — Thu, 24 May 2018 13:49:20 GMT

@moog

To be fair to EE, most of the complaints I am now getting on the payforitsucks.co.uk website are from other networks. Since EE introduced a double opt-in for 'Payforit' subscriptions reports from EE have dried up. Whee cases do arise now, they generally relate to subscriptions which were in force prior to the rule change in February.

Incidentally I asked EE whether the double opt-in rule apples to own portal services. They never answered, but unless someone here knows differently it would appear that it does.

The main scams currently seem to be Nuyoo fitness: http://payforitsucks.co.uk/scammers-nuyoo/

and various services operated by Lasevia ltd: https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/lasevia.com

There are, of course a host of other 'services' with a handful of complaints each.

There are a number of ways that consumers get caught by these scams, but I believe most of the current crop to be the result of Android malware. PSA have identified the problem but have sought to play it down. https://psauthority.org.uk/for-business/android-malware

You are of course correct about affiliate marketers being the source of most of this fraud. PSA are far too lenient and should hold these companies to account if affiliate agreements encourage fraud.

If you find any EE cases where the subscription started in March this year or later, I'd be interested in taking a look. I'm sure that it won't be long before the scammers find a way to circumvent the PIN verification process!

Paul