topic Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender in Archived Posts

Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 17:02:44 GMT

I ask whether it's possible, as I've been here

https://community.ee.co.uk/t5/Broadband-home-phone/Adding-a-second-EE-smart-hub-router/td-p/889668

https://community.ee.co.uk/t5/Broadband-home-phone/How-do-I-connect-a-second-Bright-Box-2-to-a-first-BB2-in-order/m-p/666165#M46603

https://community.ee.co.uk/t5/Broadband-home-phone/How-do-I-use-my-EE-Smart-hub-as-a-router-only/td-p/744973

and the consensus seems to be that the new smart hub is dumbed down to the point where it can't be used as one. Features such as disabling adsl sensing are removed, so I was chasing instructions on something impossible.

This is the new EE smart hub with the 2 horizontal lights in the middle.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

mikeliuk — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 18:48:48 GMT

Hi @saishzakhai ,

While you wait for expert input on the matter, I'll mention you can create a wireless access point with a LAN to LAN connection and turning off the DHCP server on the second router.

Further details at https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Wireless_access_point

To get rid of the cable bridging the two switches, you would likely need firmware support in the second router to access the first via WiFi. This I've done using DD-WRT on a Linksys router before just to omit a cable.

If your second router has a RJ45 WAN port, a double-NAT configuration is by far the simplest. This is previously how I configured the main house router for shared usage and a personal router for my own devices. In principle, the house router could be in the living room and the second router in my server room with a powerline backhaul between them (WAN to LAN).

Personally I would recommend using powerline adapters as the backhaul (instead of Cat5/Cat6 cable, or WiFi), and at that point you may as well ensure WiFi functionality in one of the adapters to save on the footprint of the second router.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 19:37:00 GMT

Thanks. Turning off DHCP seemed to solve it. I already have it connected through powerline, although I did want it to extend wifi to dead zones like a mesh router. We'll see if it works.

I wasn't aware some powerlines had built in wifi. Might look out for them in the future. I've noticed a 25% drop in speeds (40 to 30mbps) on both routers, wired and wireless.

Any way to stop the wifi light blinking because it's not directly connected to broadband? I can't turn it off in the hub light control, so I'm just going to tape over it.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

mikeliuk — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 21:02:17 GMT

Hi @saishzakhai ,

It sounds like you had a LAN to LAN connection and two DHCP servers running in the network. The outer router connected to the service provider would have a gateway out to the internet and would have distributed IP addresses with itself as the gateway so that subnet would work properly.

The second router would not have an appropriate route out to the internet so would have been distributing IP addresses, hopefully on a distinct subnet, and all nodes within this subnet would be able to communicate but would not know the route to the internet.

By disabling the second DHCP server, all IP addresses handed out would be on the first good subnet.

Presumably you are getting a flashing light as the second router is unhappy it does not know a route out to the internet. One possible way to fix this would be to specify the internal IP address of the first/outer router as the gateway for the second/inner router which is unhappy. (If you can't set this, it's game over and keep the tape.) (Per a below comment, enabling a WAN port may also either directly or could contribute to stopping the flashing. Question which remains is whether the WAN needs connecting to stop the flashing as it may still not have a route out.)

You could also try to specify an IP address for the second/inner router in the same subnet as the first/outer to make configuration easier (obviously don't assign the same IP address to distinct devices).

The key thing is to be careful you are sufficiently confident you will not lose all access to a device (often knowing how to set laptop static IP addresses will save you), otherwise be prepared to perform a factory reset.

From memory, on my other routers, some LEDs could be disabled programmatically but others could not so required black tape so I guess it's reasonably normal.

I'm guessing the second/inner router has no RJ45 WAN port, as otherwise a single WAN to LAN connection would allow both to run essentially with the original configuration (except perhaps making the subnets disjoint). Per a below comment, you might have a WAN/LAN port which can be configured as either WAN (for external access) or LAN (local network). It's debatable whether your single flat network is better or whether double-NAT is better. Off the bat, I would have gone for double-NAT to be lazy, but as you've configured a single flat network and single broadcast domain, it should have slightly lower latency with single NAT (for a small number of devices).

If you're lucky enough to have Devolo dLAN, a WiFi 550+ should get you compatibility with the new app. The Magic range is not compatible with dLAN. The brand you use is likely to have something similar although I guess it's worth keeping your current configuration until you become tired of it.

I guess this has given you a taste of network configuration and you might browse the various features of other routers (or run away screaming). DrayTek routers are very good and have rich feature sets. Have fun! 🤓

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

XRaySpeX — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:49:37 GMT

It should be able to be done in a similar way to the way I did it with Brightboxes in the articles you've read.

@saishzakhai wrote:

Features such as disabling adsl sensing are removed

The equivalent to that with SHs is to connect to its WAN port 4 & set WAN Port setting to ON. That should also stop the lights flashing as the modem is being bypassed.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 22:24:49 GMT

Thanks to all for the advice. I've been trying by myself all week,, and nearly lost patience. Seems my reward for wanting to extend wifi and switches, and help everyone.

Just to clarify, it's 2 identical EE smart hubs. I will reapproach tomorrow, but are you saying setting wan on both routers will work? Because I set wan on one router (secondary router) and it messed up the whole system to the point where I had to do yet another reset.

Would turning on wan on both routers solve the problem? Like @mikeliuk said, this stuff makes me want to run a mile. Especially after finding a solution by disabling DHCP.

I thought wan opened your router to the internet, in a way that was insecure. Couldn't anyone access the router remotely? It reminded me of those CCTV boxes linked up to the internet for no reason, just because the owner saw an ethernet port on it and decided to plug it in. Then some watchers managed to peep through them.

So to have it open on the main router seemed dangerous. It also sounds a lot more convenient to have a separate wan port, than to restart the router to activate it, and risk having to do another reset.

Also, I must've spent over an hour cumulatively in the EE/brightbox menus, and I still can't work my way round or remember where everything is, to the point that I'm fumbling through everything. There's so much white space, I don't think it would hurt to expand some of these collapsed menus.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 22:45:55 GMT

Additionally, when given the option to set my hub gateway ip address, I set it just outside the dhcp range of my main router. Wouldn't setting it to the same ip as my router cause a clash? It wouldn't let me change the subnet 255.255.255.0.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

XRaySpeX — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 02:30:24 GMT

No, you don't set the WAN port on the main router, only on the secondary router. Nowt to do with it being dangerous but the WAN for the main router is the BB signal coming in at the DSL port into its modem. While the WAN for the secondary router is the main router. That's why you use & set the WAN port on the secondary router.

EDIT: But early experiments indicate it is not working as expected 😞 .

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

XRaySpeX — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 02:34:38 GMT

It is best to set the DHCP range of the secondary router to be on a diff subset to the main router. So there can be no clash & you can id which devices connect to which.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

mikeliuk — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 08:27:53 GMT

Hi @saishzakhai ,

Whether you decide to go for a double-NAT configuration, or to stay with a single subnet will depend on your requirements.

Your original goal was to extend a single network and by bridging the switches and disabling DHCP on the second router, this is what you have achieved. (It should be noted that your second router is being used as a switch and not a router: a router mediates traffic between different networks.)

If you decide to move to a double-NAT configuration, you will have two distinct internal networks (subnets) and routability will only be possible in the outward direction (have a read of Network Address Translation online for why there is asymmetry). You will also have two firewalls if you choose the double-NAT strategy, one at each of your WANs (one is between the two subnets). A double-NAT situation may be appropriate if you want to put less trusted devices on the outer subnet and reserve the inner subnet for more sensitive devices (in reality, some care would need to be taken in encrypting traffic over the less trusted network if you are paranoid).

As you are using two identical routers, their subnets will clash by default, and so will the IP address of the router. You should change the subnet of the second/inner router if you want to use the double-NAT strategy.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 15:48:48 GMT

While it was working yesterday, the secondary router today got stuck at assigning IP addresses randomly. The main subnet of the EE hub is 192.168.1.254, and the DHCP range is .64 to .254. I had my 2nd router at .1.63, but tried changing it to .2.63 and now I can't access the web panel, although it seems to be working fine after a restart. I'm going to reset again, but the last thing I want to try is picking another DHCP range. It has another by default that's on a completely different subnet than the 192 ones. If it fails, I'll just settle for what I got working. Seems I'm asking for prosumer features from consumer hardware.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

mikeliuk — Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:52:50 GMT

Hi @saishzakhai ,

Are you attempting to transition to a double-NAT configuration?

If you were, then by changing the subnet from 192.168.1.0/255.255.255.0 to 192.168.2.0/255.255.255.0 your laptop would lose access as it is still in the old subnet. You would need to disconnect the laptop and reconnect it to get a new DHCP-assigned IP address in the correct range.

(More commonly 192.168.1.0/255.255.255.0 is written as 192.168.1.0/24)

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

saishzakhai — Wed, 07 Jul 2021 05:38:04 GMT

Hi guys, I'm not dead. I just had some mission-critical stuff that stopped me tinkering with anything that might cut the internet. Anyway, I'm calling it quits. I tried the method above. I'll mark @mikeliuk as solution as turning off DHCP at least gave me a day of working internet. I had to weigh up the cost of productivity, and went with a TP-Link N300 and TL-SF1008D switch for £18, a week's worth of coffee. I can see the appeal of Apple's "simplicity" now. Sure, I could spend more weekends troubleshooting, but I feel the "correct" method is to turn on WAN on the 2nd router. That's not working, and I think the simplicity of the software is to blame. I'm trying to cut down a tree with a safety saw. You guys are obviously experts in networking, and I imagine you tinker with routers that let you take the safety wheels off. Thanks for all the help.

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

mikeliuk — Wed, 07 Jul 2021 10:09:18 GMT

Just to round things off, I wanted to point out two guides with pictures on accomplishing both options mentioned above. They both mention LAN-to-LAN and LAN-to-WAN (either in the text, pictures, or headings).

https://www.wikihow.com/Connect-Two-Routers

https://www.wikihow.com/Cascade-Routers

I was quite surprised to find picture-based guides as the configuration is relatively simple but the pictures widen the audience to beyond the audience I would have expected.

Although I LAN-to-WAN my desktop/large-footprint routers, I recently fell victim to buying more than I need with Devolo Magic-2 WiFi Next and LAN Triple from Amazon Warehouse for a total of about GBP 135 (it was to remove an apparent 300 Mbps bottleneck which I imagined and was not present in the replaced dLAN adapters).

My opinion is that technology companies make a lot of profit from people buying more than they need so right-sizing purchases and re-using existing hardware are always good things. 😀

Quick mention that TP-Link N300 seems a pretty reasonable choice. WiFi extender so it effectively uses WiFi as backhaul instead of powerlines when using powerline adapters. An advantage over powerline adapters is not requiring a powerline adapter at each end. The disadvantage is the bandwidth will be limited by the WiFi link and the extender will need to receive a good signal. If one of the routers could have functioned in WiFi bridge mode, it could have taken the place of the TP-Link N300. On the other hand, a router capable enough to have a WiFi bridge mode would typically be too expensive to waste in such a function (I flashed DD-WRT to a compatible cheap router to get this functionality).

Re: Is it possible to use use 2nd EE smart hub as switch/wifi extender

XRaySpeX — Wed, 07 Jul 2021 14:16:53 GMT

Yes, it's most peculiar. I can do things with 2 Brightboxes that I can't do at all with 2 EE Smart Hubs:

LAN to Bridged LAN (Single NAT) - To make a second Brightbox as a WAP on your LAN to the main Brightbox
LAN to Fully Routed WAN (Double NAT) - To make a 2nd Brightbox as a Routing WAP on your LAN to the main Brightbox

Thanks! You're welcome 🙂 ! Glad I could be of assistance.