topic Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections? in Archived Posts

What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Wed, 09 Jun 2021 22:49:34 GMT

https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM.htm explains that there is a choice of three profiles for managing a VDSL line - speed, standard and stable.

What does EE use?

The reason I ask is that my line appears to be banded at 18000kbps and is not recovering (I've seen this line do 26Mbps when I was with plusnet), even though the SNRM is over 11dB and the ES is below the daily limit explained in the above link. It has been stable for over 10 days and so I was hoping it would recover by now.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Wed, 09 Jun 2021 23:00:12 GMT

Welcome to EE's Home Broadband Forum.

For my info, what is the daily ES limit explained in the above link? I can't find it.

If you would like help with your BB speed or connection issues, please would you carry out the following steps for starters, which will enable us to diagnose the problem and advise you further. Do not restart your router to do these tests:

1. Post your full router stats:

For a BrightBox: login and go to Advanced Settings/ System/ DSL Status. Also post 'System Uptime' from top of System Log page.
For a SmartHub: login and go to Advanced Settings/ Technical Log/ Information. Obscure your names & any numbers in the BB Username & also the SSIDs.

Full router stats are key to any speed & connection issues.

2. Try a wired speedtest, using an Ethernet cable supplied with the router, here http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html . Click on the "Results Page" button at the bottom of the graph you first see and then copy to here just the "Link to this result:" link that you see below the next main graph.

3. What does BT Wholesale Broadband Availability Checker estimate for your phone number? Post just the whole table and the line above it, blanking out your phone number. If it doesn't recognise your phone number or you don't have one, use the Address Checker, not the Postcode Checker.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Wed, 09 Jun 2021 23:13:41 GMT

Hello,

Thanks for the quick reply!

ES = Errored Seconds, a count of how many seconds contain one or more errors.

This is reported by some modems - I've been watching my DrayTek Vigor 130 for the last few days and have seen less than 100 per day.

This is then used to calculate the MTBE (mean time between errors) and that is what is displayed in the table titled "NGA FTTC Line Categorisation Thresholds".

So if I am seeing 100 ES per day, my MTBE = 86400 / 100 = 864 seconds.

This is above the MTBE green threshold in the table for the Speed and Standard options but below the Stable. So if my connection is using the Speed or Standard profile, given that I don't see any disconnects, DLM should eventually remove the banding. But if the connection is set to the Stable profile then I will be in the amber range and so DLM will not make any changes, hence my original question.

I can post some router stats tomorrow.

Thanks again for your response.

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Wed, 09 Jun 2021 23:22:25 GMT

Here is the speed checker result - so my line is running at the low end of the expected results!

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Wed, 09 Jun 2021 23:25:40 GMT

Thanks. Since I've been on FTTC I've seen v. few ES. At the mo' I'm getting 1 ES every 7 hours. When I was on ADSL it was about 1 ES per 3 mins.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 06:52:03 GMT

Here are some stats from the Vigor 130, where it had been running without disconnections for about 11 days:

> v s
---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
Running Mode : 17A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 18000000 bps US Actual Rate : 4191000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 22961704 bps US Attainable Rate : 4237632 bps
DS Path Mode : Fast US Path Mode : Fast
DS Interleave Depth : 1 US Interleave Depth : 1
NE Current Attenuation : 28 dB Cur SNR Margin : 10 dB
DS actual PSD : 7. 4 dB US actual PSD : 7. 5 dB
NE CRC Count : 1466 FE CRC Count : 1435
NE ES Count : 1087 FE ES Count : 849
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : fe004452 ITU Version[1] : 41590000
VDSL Firmware Version : 05-07-09-0F-01-07 [with Vectoring support]
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 36 dB Far SNR Margin : 6 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5004946 CO ITU Version[1] : 544eb206

> v s counts
[ Counters: Showtime ]
Near End Far End Note
ElapsedTime : 974186 974186 (seconds)
CRC : 1466 1435
FEC : 4654130 70323
HEC : 0 0
CRC_P : 241 0
CRCP_P : 0 0
CVP_P : 0 0
NCD : 0 0
LCD : 0 0
ES : 1087 849
SES : 4 27
LOSS : 0 626
UAS : 0 0
LOFS : 0 0

[ Counters: 15Min ]
Near End Far End Note
ElapsedTime : 699 699 (seconds)
CRC : 0 0
FEC : 1 0
HEC : 0 0
CRC_P : 0 0
CRCP_P : 0 0
CVP_P : 0 0
NCD : 0 0
LCD : 0 0
ES : 0 0
SES : 0 0
LOSS : 0 0
UAS : 0 0
LOFS : 0 0

[ Counters: 1DAY ]
Near End Far End Note
ElapsedTime : 79899 79899 (seconds)
CRC : 92 7
FEC : 4007773 17
HEC : 0 0
CRC_P : 16 0
CRCP_P : 0 0
CVP_P : 0 0
NCD : 0 0
LCD : 0 0
ES : 69 7
SES : 0 0
LOSS : 0 0
UAS : 0 0
LOFS : 0 0

Not sure about the FEC number - seems to have shot up in one day?

I've just changed to a HG612 modem to rule out issues with the Draytek. This also allows the use of DSLStats to generate various graphs for the stats. Will post the results once I have some, if that is useful.

The reason I am using the Draytek / HG612 is that I have a separate load balancing router to manage 2 internet connections. As far as I know, I can't run the EE Hub in bridge mode and so would have to change a lot of configuration on the router to try that out or would lose one of my internet connections, which is not practical when I am working from home.

Cheers,

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 10:37:54 GMT

Yes, your downstream speed is rather slow.

Locate the hidden test socket that is revealed when you remove the bottom half of the split faceplate (2 screws or press tabs) of your master socket. Only do this if you have a split faceplate. Do you have any extension sockets in the home even if unused? Are there any wires connected to back of faceplate of master socket?

Try the BT Quiet Line Test (QLT), dial 17070 Opt 2, preferably with a corded phone, in the test socket with the router disconnected. If there is any noise, report it to your landline provider as a voice fault (don't mention Broadband). Often sorting out voice faults will fix the Broadband as well.

Reboot the router & plug it into the test socket. Post the full router stats & System Uptime when plugged into test socket.

Is the issue any better?

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 10:47:59 GMT

Hello.

I can do this but don't want the disconnections to upset DLM, which I assume is keeping my downstream speed low (it syncs at exactly the same speed every time I reconnect).

Presumably, I have to use a microfilter in the test socket? I do have one somewhere but haven't used these since ADSL days as the socket has the phone/modem outputs on the faceplate.

Thanks for you help so far.

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 10:57:22 GMT

1 or 2 discons won't do any harm. Indeed, as I suspect, the damage has already been done & the DLM is capping your speed @ 18 Meg as a result.

Yes, use a dangly filter.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:42:52 GMT

So I did the quiet line test through the faceplate, without the modem on, through the master socket, through the master socket with ADSL filter and then through the master socket, with filter and modem turned on. Line sounded the same in each case. There was very low level noise, which is probably the phone itself, and there was no crackling, clicking or buzzing - just seemed like white noise but very quiet (nothing you would notice when using the phone).

The router does seem to have come back with a faster upstream speed now (4716 vs 4237 before) that it is plugged into the master socket via the filter. The downstream max attainable has come down from 26000ish to 23900.

Going back to my original post, do you know what profile EE uses? From what I've read, if they can change it, that will need a DLM reset which might get my speed back again. However, if there is a problem on my line, will end up in the same situation as DLM kicks in again.

Would really help to know what DLM currently thinks of my line and if it is OK then how long before the cap is lifted. It's possible that some one-off event in the past pushed the line down to these speeds but there may be an ongoing problem.

Here are some of the stats from the HG612, looking at the graphs shows everything running along fairly steadily.

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 4759 Kbps, Downstream rate = 23900 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 4716 Kbps, Downstream rate = 17998 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 9.9 6.1
Attn(dB): 25.9 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 7.2 7.1
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 26 33
B: 237 147
M: 1 1
T: 34 5
R: 16 16
S: 0.4198 0.9962
L: 4840 1317
😧 1 1
I: 254 164
N: 254 164
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 535374 118434
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 18193262 3402450
RSCorr: 3 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 66265925 0
Data Cells: 883000 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 21 21
AS: 1918

Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 3.58 16.25
OR: 71.45 19.19
AgR: 18069.88 4735.55

Bitswap: 555/563 0/0

Total time = 32 min 19 sec
FEC: 3 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 2 min 19 sec
FEC: 1 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 32 min 19 sec
FEC: 3 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 31 min 57 sec
FEC: 3 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
#

Regards,

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:48:25 GMT

The QLT should be silent on a corded phone.

The DLM system has put you on a banded profile in response to past errors on your line, at the top of the up to 18 Meg band of these VDSL Banded Profiles,. You need to give the DLM time to relent & remove any banding. If your sync speed at the test socket remains stuck at the same speed for 10 days you should ask EE to investigate the underlying fault. If a fault is found and fixed then the OR engineer may request a DLM reset. However should significant errors persist the DLM will reapply banding.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 13:22:26 GMT

Not sure about the QLT then - it is noisy enough for me to know it is not disconnected but it is very quiet - much quieter than the sound of my breathing, for example. It is also only a cheap phone - we generally use our mobiles and I only bought that phone for any stray calls that still come in on the land line - so could it be the phones amplifier that I am hearing? Maybe will connect the phone to someone else's line and try the test again.

Will leave the modem connected to the test socket for the next couple of weeks. Will then at least have some stats for any changes that are made. Will raise with EE if it does not change by the end of the month.

I appreciate that the DLM works to stabilise people's lines but the problem is that there is no way of knowing if/when it will act. The original document I posted suggests that people could be happily using their connection while having thousands of ES a day, without any DLM intervention, but then a brief spike that takes them over the limit will see DLM act and unless their line recovers to a much lower error rate, they will be stuck. I also don't know if my line is OK now (as we don't know the profile being used) and I just have to wait or if DLM still objects to something about my line.

Thanks again for your help,

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 13:35:00 GMT

Thanks! You're welcome 🙂 ! Glad I could be of assistance

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

mikeliuk — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 19:13:58 GMT

Hi @steve_v ,

Not related to banding (your link says "ISP's known to use NGA Standard Profile: EE, Sky, TalkTalk, Vodafone") but I guess you have a Vigor 130 because you are comfortable with networking. Did you look into this functionality: https://www.draytek.com/support/knowledge-base/4800

It seems like excessively fine control to give to end-users but there are lots of reports on other service provider forums suggesting people have had success with it.

A recent discussion is https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/4682647-draytek-vigor-130-snr-stats.html

As mentioned it won't help with the banding (could make the issue worse) but no one gets a DrayTek if they don't like tweaking things. 😀

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 19:54:05 GMT

Hello,

Yes, I've seen the vdsl snr command - it can be used to change the target SNR margin by +/-5db in 0.1db steps.

I've left it at 0 as reducing it will possibly let me get a faster upstream connection but at the expense of stability, which I really need right now to get the line unbanded. As I am connected to an ECI cabinet, it is something that I might very cautiously experiment with once I am unbanded as the ECI cabinets work with a 6db target and my SNR does not seem to vary much through the day. On the otherhand, a -1 db change is probably only going to give me 1 or 2 extra Mbps so perhaps not worth the risk.

I have heard of people raising the offset to force the line to a lower sync speed to get a really stable line to help get rid of the banding. But I am seeing a SNR of about 10db anyway, so don't get that many errors on the line at the moment and so going to 11db (current target of 6db plus 5db offset) is probably not going to make any difference.

I have swapped the 130 for a HG612 for now. This is to rule out the 130 being faulty or having any firmware bugs or incompatibilities with my line. It also lets me use DSLStats to monitor the modem. Was a bit painful having to log into the 130 to keep checking the stats and you don't get the hour by hour breakdown. I see that DSLStats has some "Advanced Tweaks" to apply a "Target SNRM offset" but, again, it is not something I am going to experiment with now.

I also saw about EE using the standard profile but I believe that ISPs can change it for individual customers (have seen plusnet customers request stable rather than speed, etc) so there is the possibilty that EE have put me on the stable profile but there doesn't seem to be any way of finding this out. If it is possible to change, then I would like to be put on the speed profile. As I am load balancing a couple of connections (my wife and I work from home and we have 4 kids so need the bandwidth), any additional drops are not going to be noticeable.

I am looking forward to FTTP, as I can drop the multiple connections and load balancing and stop worrying about modem config, but there aren't any plans for it to be installed in my area. Might even consider Starlink but it is £90 a month and about £500 for the hardware!

Thanks,

Steve

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

mikeliuk — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 20:18:04 GMT

I have the option of FibreNest FTTP which I've seen exceed 500 Mbps for my neighbours but can't justify it for the demand I have, so I've cheaped out with 4G LTE+ (highest bandwidth, Cat4 router, I've seen is about 35 Mbps down, and 68 Mbps up, hoping a future 5G router will help with this).

Based on my previous experience with Virgin Media/cable and BT/VDSL, mobile broadband is becoming pretty competitive with fixed line services. I'm even hoping 5G mobile broadband means I might be able to skip FTTP entirely at a lower price point (bursty but I'm hoping for higher peaks).

I'm hoping DrayTek will bring out a 5G dual-SIM Wifi 6 router as their current range is getting dated from a consumer perspective (new shiny things) but obviously still fine for enterprise (boring old technology). 🤓

I guess one key advantage of mobile broadband is that I'm not reliant on a single point of failure which is very hard (for a consumer) to replace (by persuading the supplier): a cable to the house. I can replace the router and SIM very easily, and have a good choice of towers nearby (even connecting to some surprisingly far away).

Like in enterprise, high demand is a good thing. High demand means a larger budget and hence better toys. 😂

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Thu, 10 Jun 2021 20:43:54 GMT

I am using a B818 Huawei 4G+ router as the other connection into the load balancer.

Generally get around 100Mbps download, but have seen over 200Mbps! However, the latency is a bit higher and the remote desktop connection software that I use to connect to my work computer doesn't seem to like it. Think I get the good download speed as I can actually see the tower from my garden!

It does make the FTTC "fibre" solutions look a bit tired. But again people's experience with 4G seems as hit and miss as with FTTC. Luckily, I seem to have good luck with 4G to make up for the FTTC performance! 5G will offer better speeds and latency so will be interesting to see what happens. Unfortunately, I am not in a 5G area, though.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:38:37 GMT

As an update to the original question - it does look like EE are using the standard profile for my connection. On Saturday morning, the connection had resync'ed to 20Mbps.

Now am seeing a few more errors - over the 144 threshold - so will see if it gets any better.

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

XRaySpeX — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:45:53 GMT

I expect you are still on a banded profile in the up to 20 Meg band

Re: What profile is used for EE VDSL connections?

steve_v — Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:52:41 GMT

Agreed:

Max: Upstream rate = 4415 Kbps, Downstream rate = 26060 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 4394 Kbps, Downstream rate = 19998 Kbps

Down Up
SNR (dB): 10.0 6.1

it syncs at that speed consistently and that is the top of one of the bands listed here - https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_profiles.htm

Hopefully will get some good days and see a low ES count so that get moved up to the next band. I would be OK on the speed profile as the ES count I am seeing is below the limit for that profile. Unfortunately, am getting just higher than allowed for the standard profile.